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Please comment that we want war elephants!!!


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Please comment, let us be a voice for those who cannot speak among us, those being the poor, downtrodden, left out, war elephants. They cannot speak for themselves, but if they could they would say, "include us, bring us into the game, let us trample the enemy underfoot for you my lord and let us skewer the foes on our mighty tusks for you my liege". Please #bringtheelephants

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On 9/6/2021 at 1:57 PM, Yavor said:

Not in medieval times, though!

False, they were used but usually as moral boost or to strike fear into the enemy, because they are not native to Europe and because they could not feed them much during the invasion of foreing lands. But in a game like this you sometimes need to take into the consideration fun game mechanic vs. historical fact.

And let be honest, war elephants would¬†fun as heck ūüôā¬†mby limit them to 1-2 per army and make the army that use them kinda slow and they should consume a lot of food to¬†balance them in a game..

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On 9/9/2021 at 9:26 PM, DoVlaLegend said:

False, they were used but usually as moral boost or to strike fear into the enemy, because they are not native to Europe and because they could not feed them much during the invasion of foreing lands. But in a game like this you sometimes need to take into the consideration fun game mechanic vs. historical fact.

And let be honest, war elephants would¬†fun as heck ūüôā¬†mby limit them to 1-2 per army and make the army that use them kinda slow and they should consume a lot of food to¬†balance them in a game..

false?

if you claim war elephants were used to spread fear among Europeans in medieval times, could you give some example?

I agree they would be cool, but it would be as realistic as having Native Americans in KoH2, as cool as it would be.

Cartaghinians did use elephants in Roman times, but the sub-specie was extinct by the middle ages and there were no more elephants in North Africa in the period covered by this game.

And the elephants of sub- Saharan savanna were too big for humans to employ them for labor or warfare.

On the other hand, I need to admit that my 15+ years long academic studies and proffessional interest in medieval islamic world and West Africa weren't focused on war elephants, so I might have missed some mention of them, so I'm eager to learn something new if you have something interesting to share.

Edited by Elvain
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Kriegselefanten sollten zur Verf√ľgung stehen. Im Mittelalter waren diese Einheiten selten oder garnicht vorhanden. Die Kosten f√ľr die Ausbildung der Kriegselefanten waren sehr hoch. Im Kampf waren die Elefanten schwer zu kontrollieren und deshalb unbrauchbar. In meinen Mods gibt es diese Elefanten und sind selten und teuer zu erwerben.

War elephants should be available. In the Middle Ages, these units were rare or non-existent. The cost of training the war elephants was very high. In battle, the elephants were difficult to control and therefore unusable. In my mods there are these elephants and are rare and expensive to acquire.

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On 11/16/2021 at 1:11 PM, Elvain said:

if you claim war elephants were used to spread fear among Europeans in medieval times, could you give some example?

"In the Middle Ages, elephants were seldom used in Europe. Charlemagne took his one elephant, Abul-Abbas, when he went to fight the Danes in 804, and the Crusades gave Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II the opportunity to capture an elephant in the Holy Land, the same animal later being used in the capture of Cremona in 1214, but the use of these individual animals was more symbolic than practical, especially when contrasting food and water consumption of elephants in foreign lands and the harsh conditions of the crusades."

Like I said, there were not used as much as in Asia and Africa, but to say there were non would be a false statment. It would be a nice addition to the game with the correct amount of balancing. 

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3 hours ago, bilbobaggins764 said:

elephants are real just to let you know. I would hate gunpodwer it ruins the medieval immersion. 

Elephants as a weapon are not real for the given period. Gunpowder artillery: 1260 Battle of Ain Jalut, Europeans around 1330s. Which are appropriate for the region and timeframe of the game.

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1 hour ago, DoVlaLegend said:

"In the Middle Ages, elephants were seldom used in Europe. Charlemagne took his one elephant, Abul-Abbas, when he went to fight the Danes in 804, and the Crusades gave Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II the opportunity to capture an elephant in the Holy Land, the same animal later being used in the capture of Cremona in 1214, but the use of these individual animals was more symbolic than practical, especially when contrasting food and water consumption of elephants in foreign lands and the harsh conditions of the crusades."

Like I said, there were not used as much as in Asia and Africa, but to say there were non would be a false statment. It would be a nice addition to the game with the correct amount of balancing. 

Hehe, this is ridiculous. Yes, Charlemagne got an elephant as a gift from Abbasid caliph as a ceremonial sign of respect, a living trophy if you want, not as a weapon. Also that elephant originated most probably either from India or East Africa, but most deffinitely not from North Africa, where elephants were extinct. Hence this anecdote is no proof of using elephants in medieval North Africa.

That Charlemagne marched his elephant exactly once to surprise his foe is no sign of existence of "War elephants" as a military unit. Rather the opposite: Even the 2 mentions of elephants being used by Europeans in no more than 2 military campaigns over half a millenium clearly show, that we deffinitely can not speak of "War elephants" as military unit. The undefined source you quote clearly indicates this.

To use the same method, we could demand a military unit called "War singers", because the Hussites did something similar to what Charlemagne did: They sang songs in order to spread fear among their opponents. Having "War singers" as a military unit actually makes far more sense than War elephants, because these military songs were used regularly, not just once in 4 centuries.

Anyway, the argument still stands: the claim that elephants were used for warfare in medieval North Africa is false. And you provided no argument to make it less false. Still waiting for something of any value.

Edited by Elvain
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1 hour ago, William Blake said:

Elephants as a weapon are not real for the given period. Gunpowder artillery: 1260 Battle of Ain Jalut, Europeans around 1330s. Which are appropriate for the region and timeframe of the game.

Could you provide more info on gunpoder? i was under the understanding it was mid 1300's first used and not a staple or impactfull force. But my ideal is fudlaism from around 950-1250. That would be a great time period to cover. 

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11 hours ago, Elvain said:

Anyway, the argument still stands: the claim that elephants were used for warfare in medieval North Africa is false. And you provided no argument to make it less false. Still waiting for something of any value.

You wanted some examples of elephants in medieval Europe and I have provided them. Were there any grand battles with hundreds of war elephants? No, but they had other use as stated before. 

The argument here is "what's a fun game mechanic that's historically inspired" and war elephants would 100% fall in that category.

If we are being nitpicky than having an option to have different resources at every start would factually be 1000% false, but it helps to make a game more enjoyable and repayable. So in that case I believe that even with the war elephants not being used in Europe like they were in Asia at that time, we can all agree they would make a game more fun and we can turn a blind eye to the historical facts in this case. 

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5 hours ago, DoVlaLegend said:

You wanted some examples of elephants in medieval Europe and I have provided them. Were there any grand battles with hundreds of war elephants? No, but they had other use as stated before. 

The argument here is "what's a fun game mechanic that's historically inspired" and war elephants would 100% fall in that category.

If we are being nitpicky than having an option to have different resources at every start would factually be 1000% false, but it helps to make a game more enjoyable and repayable. So in that case I believe that even with the war elephants not being used in Europe like they were in Asia at that time, we can all agree they would make a game more fun and we can turn a blind eye to the historical facts in this case. 

oh yes, I asked, but in some context. Let me remind it to you:

you stated that Elephants were used in North Africa, even in Roman times, and you got an answer that it wasn't in medieval times, which you claimed to be false. So when you are accusing somebody of false statement, I am assuming you have something to prove it. So please feel free to prove your point. Or don't lie.


If you don't care about basic realism you may call it nitpicking, but It's not. It's about respecting elementary human values and elementyry respect to basic framework of time and geography. It's obvious that you and few others don't care about even essential sense of realism. Okay. No problem. You have full right to voice it. Others - however - have right to respect realism and ask for it in a game. And tell you that your wishes are inconsistent with reality. It will be the developers to decide. The only problem is that if you don't bother with facts, you should at least be honest enough and not claim, that facts contradicting you are false. Is it too much to ask?

I agree that a fun element is very important in a game, but I think it should have some elementary limits. Otherwise we could ask for Samurais, Roman legionaries in a medieval game like this... or what not how about War kangoroos? They would all be as fun as elephants and no less accurate.

Edited by Elvain
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6 hours ago, DoVlaLegend said:

You wanted some examples of elephants in medieval Europe and I have provided them. Were there any grand battles with hundreds of war elephants? No, but they had other use as stated before. 

The argument here is "what's a fun game mechanic that's historically inspired" and war elephants would 100% fall in that category.

If we are being nitpicky than having an option to have different resources at every start would factually be 1000% false, but it helps to make a game more enjoyable and repayable. So in that case I believe that even with the war elephants not being used in Europe like they were in Asia at that time, we can all agree they would make a game more fun and we can turn a blind eye to the historical facts in this case. 

 

we could say the same thing about gunpowder. it was rarley used after intorduced in mid 14th century had little effect on battle. its not like men had rifles standing shoulder to shoulder mowing each other down in the middle ages. 

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I'm not saying we need gunpowder. We should not and it is fine. But if they are adding fancy rare very very location specific things I'd rather have first cannons than an elephant. Mostly because I can see how a cannon is essentially an artillery like a good catapult or a trebuchet, but an elephant is what? Uber slow cavalry? Battering ram? It is not close to any other unit type.

 

 

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